Personal Intervention as a Performance Enhancer

Hi Everyone,

I would like to share with you a personal testimonial about Personal Intervention. Hope it is helpful in providing an individual sport perspective to this very powerful tool.

Personal Intervention = Performance Enhancement?

In a typical green way let me start at the beginning to give you all the information, from about the age of 8 I developed a fondness for golf. I went through local academies and through time, coaching and training my game improved. However in my early teens I started to play less and less as I started to play high school football (soccer to our American colleagues), roller hockey, martial arts and eventually my real passion American football.

Despite my involvement in playing all those
other sports, from time to time, I still enjoy
the occasional round of Golf. Don’t get me wrong I am no Rory McIlroy or Tiger Woods :) In fact, since the age of 8, I have always played golf with the same person and I have never beat them, as they are a lot more experienced than I am.

Until today! Today there was something different about my game. Today I used Personal Intervention as a Performance Enhancer.

Since the start of the year I have been doing a sport psychology course. In my spare time, I am working on incorporating sport psychology and E-Colors, so that when the time is right, there is a program solely geared up for the sports market.

When I started having a bad game, I started to press pause to make myself stop, relax and take a breath. In sport psychology there is something called “casual arbitration theory” this is when you start to break down small things in your mind, it can be a motivating factor when in your mind a little thing can make you feel good and make your performance feel better, regardless of you actual performance. On the flip side of that, it can also lead into a downward spiral making your performance feel worse. So before each shot I started to press pause each time and I saw my stroke number dropping.

The funny thing is the person I was playing with is also a Green/Red. He wasn’t exercising Personal Intervention as I could see him going the other way and getting more frustrated the  calmer I got, and the closer I closed the gap…

As the game went on I believe I started taking Personal Intervention in sports to my next level. I carried on pressing pause before each shot but I also started to press play and focusing in, closing out all other external factors.

Being top color green, I tend to over-think everything to the point of why is that squirrel there etc… Even though I was pressing pause to calm myself down and pressing play to focus, I was still allowing external pressures or what I believed to be external pressures at that time, to affect my game.

That’s when I realized the external pressure were actually internal and I had the power to change my thought pattern. I no longer worried what my opponent was doing because in the end it had no effect on my ability to perform.

At this point I realized that my concentration though intense was not focused in the correct way and this was another opportunity to use Personal Intervention. I was in what is called Broad and External concentration and if I wanted to improve my performance I needed to change what I concentrated on to Internal and Narrow, solely focusing on what was important at the time, zoning out distraction and putting blinkers on to the rest of the world, as that was the right concentration use at the time.

I will never be a pro golfer but I believe using Personal Intervention as a Performance Enhancer today I saved myself anywhere between 6-10 strokes.

Though I used this on the golf course today, I believe this is applicable to any sport, some of the faster moving sports may be harder to master but still possible and this going forward could become a core foundation for Personal Intervention in sports.

If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!  We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.

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How Do You Listen?

Around 14 years ago I found myself lying on the floor in a hotel room in Pau, France thinking that my life was quickly coming to an end. Gasping for breath I made four promises that I do my best to uphold every day since.  As you can read in ‘At the End of the Day’, those four commitments were:

• I would spend more time with my family
• I would become a better listener
• I would never have another argument again
• I would find a way to help people better communicate

In order never to have an argument again, I had to find another mechanism to listen and in turn understand what and why people were saying the things that clearly made sense to them, but at times, made no sense at all to me. It became necessary to find a filter through which I could listen and this enabled me to further develop, along with three partners, a simple self-awareness tool called the E-Colors.

By appreciating that different personality styles think, communicate andact differently it became much easier to understand why previous perspectives and opinions of others could, in the past, have led to serious debate or an argument.

In 2004, we formed Equilibria and having been blessed by having highly motivated coaches from many countries around the world, we now proudly and humbly coach individuals, teams and organizations on a global basis.

Over the years, we have seen many renditions of how to become a more effective listener and for many years, we co-advocated that the two extremes on the “listening scale” were stingy listening and generous listening.

Some of the behaviors of a STINGY LISTENER are:
• Ignoring or pretending
• Looking away – no eye contact
• Picking up the phone or staying on the computer
• Being distracted
• Fiddling around
• Talking to others , multi-tasking or task segmenting

Some of the behaviors of a GENEROUS LISTNER are:
• Pays attention
• Ask questions for clarification
• Makes eye contact
• Turns away from the computer or phone and faces the speaker
• Appears to be listening by nodding
• Allows no distractions
• Writes down key points being said

The challenge with all of the ‘generous listening’ behaviors is that they are all mechanical and although someone may be going through the motions, there is still a possibility that there is no positive intent to actually listen to understand.

Now, as time has passed we begin to observe another aspect or level of listening, which we believe, is actually much more effective and can lead to phenomenal results.

We call it ABUNDANT LISTENING.  This level of listening brings another perspective, which leads to:
• Listening for possibility
• Listening to forward the action
• Listening to what you are committed to
• Listening with curiosity
• Listening for the most rewarding interpretation
• Listening to understand, appreciate and when appropriate, empathize

What kind of results do you think you could achieve if you became an abundant listener both at work and at home?

You have everything to gain and nothing to lose — as always, it’s your choice.

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Taft Oil-Technology Academy: Road to Diversity of Thought

Last month Dr. Rosalinda Mercado-Garza, PhD (Y/R) conducted a Train the Trainer session for invited educational leaders.  The article below is an extract from her weekly newsletter. Ted Pendergrass (R/G), coordinator at Taft Oil Technology Academy attended the Train the Trainer Session for educational leaders from January 12-15, 2015.  Upon his return to his campus, he took the road map and generated an exercise. See his reflection below. “After recapping the basic concepts of E-Colors and Personal Intervention with the sophomores (15 year olds) and juniors (16 year olds) in Oil-Tech, I wanted a visual of the different phases people typically go through when introduced to the E-Colors process. I had seen the “Road to Celebration” slide at the Train the Trainer session in Houston and I thought it was the right vehicle. I enlarged the slide and printed E-Color avatars for all the students. After describing the phases of the journey to the students, they placed their avatars where they felt they were in their journey with E-Colors. The plan is for the board to be living. I encourage students to move their avatars when they feel like it. Moving “up” the road is a cause for celebration with the student. Moving “down” the road allows for “coachable moments” to mentor the students individually.” If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free! We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.

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E-Colors in Sports says #screwthetaboo – Part II

In keeping with Equilibria’s best practice of documenting our journeys, Ian Collin’s has prepared Part II of his Mt. Kilimanjaro report.  Please join me in congratulating Ian and his awesome group of friends for all their time and efforts in raising awareness for the #screwthetaboo campaign.

Did We Meet Our Objectives?
Yes. The team successfully reached Uhuru Peak at 6:45am on Sunday 21st December. What started out as a team of individuals had developed by the end into a cohesive unit, walking the final excruciating steps to the peak arm-in-arm, willing and supporting one another onto the end. Each individual and the team as a whole fully realised their potential, and in the process raised over $20,000 for the #screwthetaboo campaign and affiliated charities.

What Went Well?
• We achieved our goal of reaching the Peak and did so as a team. The sense of support and camaraderie was phenomenal.

• A multitude of E-Colors conversations along the way, particularly around managing potential limiters and Personal Intervention as altitude and fatigue seems to bring out behavioral tendencies in a big way.

• We raised over $20,000 for the #screwthetaboo campaign.

How Could it Have Gone Even Better?
• Two of our support team got altitude sickness and had to turn around on Day 4, even though they’ve made the climb 10+ times.
• One of our team suffered badly from altitude sickness, possibly due to a lack of water on the first day, and battled from Day 2 onwards. He managed to reach the summit thanks to the support from the team and guides.
• The team suffered a few knee injuries which became particularly painful on the descent.

Lessons Learned
• Altitude, lack of oxygen, physical, mental and emotional exhaustion bring out our behavioral tendencies. It is so critical at these times that we are strong and adept at using Personal Intervention and choosing an appropriate response rather than reacting to events.

• The human body shuts down before the mind does and can be willed to go further than it knows is possible. Each of us had times when we wanted to quit, yet we found something deep within and in the support of the team. Like Sir Edmund Hillary said, ”It is not the mountain we conquer, but ourselves.”
• We had a mix of E-Colors in the team, and understanding the dynamics and needs of the different personalities helped us work together and become an effective unit. Being aware of the different communication styles and different need for information for each member helped us to gel quickly and work together to accomplish our goal.
• Everyone has some of each of the different E-Colors within them. There were times when we all particularly had to draw on our Blue energy and play the role of supporter. For some, this came more naturally than others, but most importantly we all had it within us.
• The context is so decisive. “… people don’t have one permanent thing called character. We each have a multiplicity of tendencies inside, which are activated by this or that context.” Brooks, David. “Where The Wild Things Are” column in The New York Times, 20 October 2009, p. A27. Being present to and remembering why we were doing the climb, to raise money and awareness for #screwthetaboo and changing the way people talk about suicide, helped shift the context of how things were occurring for us and helped us overcome the physical and mental exhaustion.

Excerpt from one of the team:
I have never seen a more beautiful sight in my entire life. The sun rising above the clouds that sit thousands of feet below us, all light and fluffy blanketing the earth like cotton wool. Orange and red stretching out as far as the eye can see spanning across the curvature of the planet, words cannot begin to describe such beauty that transcends all I have ever known and you can’t help but feel humbled by its enormity. As I look over my right shoulder I can see the shadow this great mountain casts rising above the horizon. I never would have believed that anything could cast a shadow above the horizon. Arm in arm, in front and behind me, eight brave souls will each other forward, half step after grueling half step. It takes minutes just to walk a handful of meters and its about 12 degrees below freezing. Beginning our summit attempt at midnight it has taken everyone of us to find something deep inside of us we never knew we had, every drop of physical endurance, mental strength and emotional capacity just to keep moving in the direction of our goal.

Roles would often switch, someone only minutes before who could not go on a step more would soon become the shoulder that another depended on. We had battled through headaches, nausea, vomiting, hallucinations, sleep and oxygen depravation and overwhelmed by our emotions. At almost 6000m above sea level the human body doesn’t cope well with the lack of oxygen and without our incredible team of guides and each other none of us could have made it even this far. At 6.45am we reach our goal, the summit of the highest freestanding mountain in the world. Just a short few minutes for contemplation, celebration and photos before beginning our rapid descent. I couldn’t contain my emotions any longer and cried almost the whole way down. My body just needed to express the gravity of my experience. Just like life, the mountain is tough and will bring you to your knees. None of us can do it without the strength and support of those around us. Quite symbolic considering the reason we decided to climb Mount Kilimanjaro in the first place, to raise awareness and funds for the prevention of suicide, the highest cause of death of Australians under 44.

- Tim Guest, Founder #screwthetaboo

Action Items
Align with #screwthetaboo and inquire into how the E-Colors and Personal Intervention could be used to assist in talking about and preventing suicide. 






If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!

We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.

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E-Colors in Sports says #screwthetaboo

Ian Collins is one of Equilibria’s most dynamic Coaches whose E-Colors are Blue/Red.  He recently participated in a major endeavor to climb Mt Kilimanjaro to raise awareness for a very serious matter effecting people around the world.  Please welcome Equilibria in congratulating Ian and his entire team.

WHAT was the Objective?
Mt Kilimanjaro is the highest mountain in Africa and the highest free-standing mountain in the world at 5,895 metres (19,341 ft) above sea level. Our objective was to hike Mt Kilimanjaro as part of the #screwthetaboo campaign, while using the E-Colors principles to understand the team dynamics and put in place measures to ensure that both the individuals and the team collectively realize their full potential.

WHY Did We Do It?
#screwthetaboo is an organisation that was founded to empower the community of people who are committed to changing the way we talk about suicide.

Suicide remains the leading cause of death for Australians aged between 15 and 44.  Men account for three out of every four deaths by suicide. Deaths by suicide have reached a 10-year peak.  The most recent Australian data (ABS, Causes of Death, 2012) reports deaths due to suicide at 2,535.  This equates to almost seven deaths by suicide in Australia each day.

For every completed suicide, it is estimated that as many as 30 people attempt. That’s around 200 attempts per day. That’s more than one new attempt in Australia every 10 minutes.  It is estimated that around 250 people make a suicide plan every day. It is estimated that around 1,000 people think about suicide every day.

We all have a role to play in suicide prevention and we can start just by talking about it.  Please visit for more information.

WHO Are We?
A team of 8 individuals (7 from Perth, myself from Cape Town) who have been affected by suicide and/or are committed to impacting it as part of the #screwthetaboo campaign, and an even more amazing team of local guides & porters.

HOW We Did It
Starting our climb on the 17th December, we spent four solid days climbing high and sleeping low through a multitude of different environments and climate zones. What started as intense heat, humidity and rain, quickly turned into hail, snow and freezing temperatures. As altitude increased, the pace became slower and slower as we attempted to adapt. As the guides kept reminding us ‘Pole, Pole’ which means ‘go slowly.’

The summit push commenced at midnight on Day 5 and, after almost 7 hours of grueling step after step, we reached Uhuru Peak to watch the sunrise over the Serengeti from the Roof of Africa.


If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!

We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.



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Wish I Knew Myself in School

All my life I have been very (very) lucky.  Over the years I have met so many wonderful and interesting people.  A few in particular have given me the opportunity to develop my career.

Two of those people, Paul Grant (RG) and Dean Masters (YR) gave me a chance to work with Equilibria back in 2007.  If you are not familiar with Equilibria our company developed a fascinating program called the E-Colors.  This system helps to identify a person’s instinctive behaviors.  For more information and to learn about your E-Colors, please visit

It is uncanny how accurate the Yellow/Blue descriptor depicts most of my behaviors – as an adult – and as a kid growing up in a small town in north eastern Canada.  If you would please read on you’ll find what I believe to be tangible evidence concerning the predictability of the E-Colors.

Well before the digital age of the Internet and smartphones, my loving GR mom was collecting the bits & pieces that have become part of my history on this planet.  In addition to hundreds of pictures, my mom preserved all of my report cards from elementary school right to university. 

Below are extracts from Kindergarten to grade 6 which highlight the attributes of a very enthusiastic and outgoing child.  In the realm of the E-Colors, this would be amount to a top Yellow.

By the time I entered Jr. High in 1977 computer systems had been introduced.  Teachers no longer wrote their comments.  Instead they selected “inattentive” from a predefined list of behaviors to describe me.  Quite appropriate since I preferred to do all the talking and always tend to rush through my assignments. 

 As a result of not being able to manage my “potential limiters” my grades suffered as did the opportunities to attend many post-secondary institutions.  My mom, being a perfectionist, did not allow myself or my two brothers to fail.  She made sure all our homework was done on time and made sure we got through high school in one piece.  She even managed to get me accepted into St. Thomas, a small university in Fredericton, NB.  My grades at STU were however mediocre.   It was not because the curriculum was too difficult.  Rather it was the same inability to slow down, pay attention and listen. 

Knowing that behaviors are predictable begs the questions “What if the E-Colors had been around when I was in school?”  Had this been the case I am certain it would have given me the ability to manage my eagerness and overly social tendencies.  Just as importantly, the teachers would have had a better understanding of their students along with tools to help them address those adverse behaviors which prevent students from realizing their potential.

Danny Kellar (Y/B)
IT Solutions Manager
Equilibria Services

If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!

We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.



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If I knew then what I know now …


This evening I went for a walk in a beautiful little pueblo (village) called Albir, close to our home in Spain.

As I was walking down the pebbled beach I remembered an accident I had years ago in the 70′s, well before I knew anything about E-Colors, strengths, potential limiters, how I could get hurt, SWA, Personal Intervention etc.

In those days, on my time off from the rigs one of my hobbies was to help a friend of mine exercise his horses. He was an up and coming “Rejoneador” and most of his horses were very highly strung. For those of you who may not know, a Rejoneador is a person who basically does the same work as a matador (bullfighter) but on horseback.  The horses are extremely well trained and the equestrianism is a fine art.

In the winter we used to take the horses down to Albir for training and then go for long walks.

One of the horses I rode was always the more ‘frisky’ and so when there was a danger of rearing and bolting, my friend would keep himself and his horse between me and any way to bolt. This always worked well until one day we got OVER-CONFIDENT. My friend suggested we walk the horses across the pebbled beach and let the horses walk in the sea water, which would be good for the legs and fetlocks.

It was the middle of winter and I remember having a couple of sweaters and a jacket on, so for sure the sea water was going to be cold. Was there an opportunity to exercise SWA (Stop Work Authority) before allowing ourselves to get close to the water – yes, so why would we do that?

I don’t know if you can see it too clearly but the pebbles run right into the sea and there is actually about a four foot drop maybe 6 – 10 feet into the water. As we edged closer to the water walking side by side my friend put his horse on my outside so I was between him and his horse and the sea. All of a sudden my horse started to slip on the pebbled slope edging closer and closer to the sea. As my horse struggled to gain a footing (impossible on pebbles) the under-current of the sea caught him and before I knew what was happening we were both (horse and me) in the sea and I was under the horse!
As you can imagine the horse was panicking in very cold water, and still couldn’t get a foothold on the pebbles and there were legs and hooves flying in all directions.

Fortunately, neither of us sustained any permanent damage but as I was walking past the place where it happened today, over thirty five years later the memories came flooding back and I just got to thinking how many ‘tools and barriers’ I have today that would keep me from getting in that situation again.

As we have recently created E-CHP (E-Colors in Human Performance) in collaboration with FisherIT,, I now see other factors such as Performance Modes, Traps, Triggers or appropriate tools that could also have influenced a different set of actions and consequences.

Help me out please, what do you think — what could I do today knowing what we know, as opposed to what we knew then:
1. E-Colors (Yellow/Red)
2. Strengths
3. Potential Limiters
4. How I could get hurt?
5. What makes it difficult for me to exercise Stop Work Authority (SWA)?
6. Personal Intervention – Pause or Play and do what?
7. E-CHP – was there relevance in considering E-CHP principles?
8. Which “performance mode” was I in?
9. Which “triggers” were probably in motion?
10. Which “traps” do you think were prevalent?
11. Which “tools” would have been appropriate to use?

Thank you for your feedback.  You can leave your comments below.
Lewis Senior (Y/R)
Co-CEO & Senior Executive Coach

If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!

We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.


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How is Team Work Disrupted for You?

They say in coaching if you learn something about yourself, you had an good coaching experience.  Well I had an amazing coaching experience I wanted to share with my fellow coaches and friends.

I had been working on site when I observed as a crew member, who I had gotten to know somewhat, become frustrated and upset. I never would have predicted the upset Blue/Yellow crew member would be the person most frustrated in the situation. I took the obvious coaching opportunity to discuss his reaction with him.

We discussed what happened and how he felt.  He related to the Blue/Yellow section of the IFO Pocketbook concerning How is Teamwork Disrupted for Me, especially the notes which read:

– Others not doing their work.
– Others not showing accountability.

Until that moment, I have always viewed the section of the coaching book on teamwork as more of personal preferences on teamwork. But that was the first time for me to witness someone who exhibited such a strong reaction to this part of the E-Colors profile and I began to understand more deeply they were personality characteristics which could lead to people getting frustrated and upset.

The encounter made me think about a recent email from another coach, Steve McGrath, who shared about his personality when it comes to driving. He said people often familiarized his behavior when driving with a more adamant persona, instead of a his Blue/Yellow E-Colors. After my latest coaching experience, I began to understand his driving behavior may also relate to How Teamwork Disrupted for Me if other drivers had not for instance been showing accountability, not paying attention, driving under the influence, etc.

In his email Steve wrote, “For me it comes back to the bigger picture. Do I want to be at risk in traffic? No is the answer. So although I may display more aggressive behavior, my motivation is all true to those characteristics.”

Steve’s email and this coaching experience gave me greater insight on how people can become agitated in the workplace. From now on I’ll certainly focus more on how teamwork is disrupted for me and people of other E-Colors combinations.

Do you know how teamwork is disrupted for YOU

Article byJames Herbert (G/Y)

If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!

We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.

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Switch Off Auto Pilot Anywhere with 360 Degrees of Safety

In our recent DIFO (Deliberate Incident Free Operations) meeting we struck upon an idea that is super easy.

It’s a 3 second activity that people can use anywhere they are to assess the safety of the area around them.

While sharing some of the incidents that occurred in the field we all noted auto pilot often takes over when doing tasks on the job.

During this time people become oblivious to their surroundings.  Thus, in an effort to bring us back to conscious awareness the team came up with what they’ve termed ‘a three-sixty.’

If everyone took 3 seconds to stop, look up, down and all around (360 degrees) to note what could possibly affect their safety or the safety of others, many incidents could be avoided; a rock that could cause someone to trip, a loose piece of clothing, grease on a tool that could cause it to slip, etc.

The brainstorming continued and team members suggested doing a whistle blow and yelling, “ 360!” so everyone would do a personal Stop Work Authority (SWA) and check their space.

The simplicity of the idea is having a powerful impact already. Crews have found it fast, easy and effective and most significantly, it’s a three second activity that works in any environment.

For example, recently as I was spending time with my family and the 360 degrees of safety kept popping into my head as I prepared food for friends and family.

Quick 360’ — oops, a knife too close to the edge of the kitchen counter that could be reached by little hands, a drawer inadvertently left open, and is that cranberry sauce on the floor?!

So I am grateful to our DIFO team for such a quick and easy safety activity that I can use anywhere!

Article By: Janet Wren (Yellow/Green)

If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!

We welcome your comments. Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.

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Danger! Turn this Rig Around!

My first Equilibria E-Colors experience happened around 2008. At the time, I had just taken on a new role as the Night Safety Advisor. The company had created this new role due to it’s poor safety record and wanted extra support in this department.

Our safety record was so dismal, the Government Regulator was threatening to kick us out of the country if things didn’t improve dramatically.

We had been in operation for about one year and had not gone longer than 23 days without a recordable incident.

People were getting hurt on our rig. Efficiency was down, morale was down, and if we continued down the path we were on, someone was going to get killed. 

This was the first point Equilibria coaches made to the crew.

Were we willing to let that happen to one of our team mates?

As each of the crew members contemplated the grim possibility of losing a team member, something magical happened.

The Derrickman stood up and declared ‘I am not willing to let this happen on my rig!’, and he was right.

One by one, we all stood up and declared we were drawing a line in the sand and turning this rig around.

To do so, we needed to confront our beliefs and attitudes. With help from the Equilibria coaches, we determined that fundamentally, there existed a belief onboard the rig that the oilfield was a dangerous place, and that incidents were part and parcel with what we do. This affected our attitude towards work and had us take actions consistent with those beliefs, taking short-cuts and exposing ourselves to risk.

Until we confront our predictable future and its underlying beliefs and attitudes, we will continue to get the same results we have always gotten. Following Equilibria’s first visit to our rig, they introduced the E-Colors and I got to see the predictable nature of human behaviour. Until we become aware of these predictable tendencies, we tend to act by default based on our personality in a completely predictable manner.

The coaches shared their work on a rig in Nigeria, not too dissimilar to our own, where somebody had been killed. After shifting their beliefs, they operated successfully for a number of years without incident and there was no reason we could not do the same.

Armed with the knowledge that safety was possible, we were inspired to change. Later we became one of the safest, most efficient operations off the coast of Western Australia. I worked on the rig for a number of years following the first visit from the Equilibria coaches and I’m happy to say we NEVER lost a crew member!

E-Colors helped us realize that each of have a set of predictable behaviors. These tendencies in themselves are not bad. In fact, mine have produced some outstanding results in my life. However, without awareness, they are the only way I know to get results. The ability to tap into behaviors I may not naturally be inclined to choose, means I now have a choices and control over how I behave. I can choose to keep doing what I have always been doing based on my tendencies, or like the rig I was on, can choose a different path and ultimately get different results.

That is the beauty and the power of the E-Colors!

Article By: Ian Collins (Blue/Red)

If you haven’t established your E-Colors yet please visit and complete your PDI– it’s free!

We welcome your comments.   Just leave a reply below and we’ll get back to you.

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